I’ve been connected with Adii for a while now and always respected his stuff, but I have to be honest that I really enjoyed this conversation with him. Adii is a calming presence, something not often found in entrepreneurs, and his approach to building his company really inspired me to think twice about how I build companies as well.

I hope you enjoy it as much as I did!


John: Welcome back. Today, I have with me, Adii Pienaar, who is the founder of Conversio, formerly the founder of WooThemes in the WordPress space. And Adii and I were connected, we were just talking offline about how we’ve known who each other is for quite a while, but we’re super excited to finally have this conversation. I’ve excited to have him on, we were connected by a mutual friend. And so, Adii, welcome to the show. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself, who you are, and what you do?

Adii: Thanks for having me, John. Like I just said, I think the things that people would know me for is probably co-founding WooThemes back in the day. And as a journey, in November of this year, it would be 10 years ago that I’ve built the first product for WooThemes. So, like, in internet years, that’s probably, like, 87 years I think, the math works out too. So, I mean, yeah, so, people probably know me for, yeah, for WooThemes and WooCommerce. And then I actually sold my shares to Magnus and Mark, my cofounders, at the end of 2013. And since about mid to late 2014, I’ve been working on Conversio, which is a all-in-one marketing dashboard for E-commerce stores. So, very much, [unintelligible 00:01:15] for me at least trying to leverage the things I’d learned with kind of on WooThemes, specifically, a WooCommerce journey and try to leverage those but also just kind of try and go on a new path and find new challenges for myself as an individual and as entrepreneur.

John: Totally. So, you’re the solo founder of Conversio then, right?

Adii: Yes, I am.

John: Okay. And how is that going these days?

Adii: You know what, it’s interesting. I mean, I think, you know, I’ve always spoken about this in almost hushed tones out of kinda respect for kind of this situation. The reality was, like, when I left WooThemes, I left because Magnus, Mark, and I had different versions for what we wanted the company do. And I, because I felt stifled by that, I, like, you know, I want to text and I wanted to work my own thing. And initially, like, the exit itself was quite tough, negotiating was, you know, it was quite tough, and I think I was kind of being a dick with them, you know, through that process. And whilst those bridges were mended since, it is interesting that when I kind of started working Conversio, I was very much in that mindset, you know, almost, not necessarily kind of, “I would never go into partnership again,” but it was almost, like, that was still more of the mindset, I was closer to that mindset at the time.

You know, and to me, honestly, I think, like, it’s nice not necessarily having, you know, equal partners in the business to check every kind of big decision by. Having said that, though, I do two things that I don’t have to do to almost replicate that but in a different way. So, like, I actually have a board, which is not required. I mean, all of our, you know, seed round investors, like, their rights haven’t even converted yet. So, like, there’s no legal requirement to do that. And I also run the team in a very kind of flat, democratic way where, like, it’s fully transparent. You know, in fact, everything within the team is transparent except for individual salaries, like all other finance, whatever, is transparent. So, like, in terms of, like, having people that can challenge me, challenge, you know, decisions, you know, start conversations, make decisions, like I have all of that.

So, I think actually, and, like…I know this is a long one, sorry, what I actually miss is actually having, you know, a business partner that is in the exact same position that I am, with a vested interest, like with the same ups and downs, like someone to truly share this with. I mean, there’s, I think there’s many ways to replicate parts of it. As I said, like, I do partner with my, you know, board members, partner with my team, partner with my wife, obviously understands it from a different context. But I think, my gut feel is like only a true co-founder, you know, with similar kind of equity in the business would truly understand some of the challenges that we have to go through.

John: Interesting. So, and weren’t necessarily planning on getting into this, but I think I actually wanna talk about it because when I started Credo, I was coming off from just getting laid off and was like, “You know what, I’m doing it by myself. I don’t wanna have to rely on anybody.” And now I’ve reached the point where I need to rely on other people because this business has gotten too big for me to do it. So I want to talk about two things. One is just, like, you as a, like, as a solo founder, like, what’s really been different as a solo founder? I mean, I think you just hinted at a bunch of other things but, like, you know, is it the loneliness, is it, yeah, like…what is it really that, like, can you put your thumb on what is actually different and how have you made those changes? And then the flat architecture thing I wanna talk about too, because I’m sure that was a shift, right? And, like, I’m sure you’ve made some mistakes as you went through there trying to, you know, build this flat, super open, transparent company.

Adii: So, yeah. So, you know what I think, like, the initial, my gut feel answer, at least to your first question, is, like, I think the last three years has been immense in terms of my personal development. Like, if I consider something, like, you know, loneliness, the way that I have… So, I’ve had to purge on to find ways to relate to my team and build those relationships, not in a kind of boss-employee kind of way, but…so, kind of being more peer, not like one of the peers on the same level but still having that element or, like, or acceptance that, “Yes, if, like, push comes to shove, then I have a veto vote or I have the final say or whatever the case is.” And what those things have done is, like, it’s definitely challenged me and pushed me to truly work on my, like, the way I connect, you know, with people and, like, the way I build relationships, which I think has been fascinating.

I think when there is such a big divide between the leadership of a company, especially if there’s more co-founders, for example, or executive team versus a team, like, it almost bulldozes many of those nuances that’s, you know, kind of involved in internal building a team that’s more, that’s flat. So, like, I think that’s been the kind of biggest nuance because, as I said, like, loneliness being a good example, like, I need to find ways for the team to relate to me, which probably means I need to kind of be vulnerable first, right? So, it’s a different way of doing those things than it would have been if I had co-founders, for example, which means I probably would have never done those things in the first place.

John: Right, right. So, it basically means that, like, you need to learn how to, like, how to let them in, how to, you know, let them know, like, what you’re, you know, what you’re thinking and let them help you make decisions as opposed to, like, executive team, you know, kind of like top-down sort of management.

Adii: Exactly.

John: But… So, how do you balance that? Like, because you’re, you know, you’re being open and raw with them, you know, to a large extent. I don’t know if you go as far as like, “Hey, you know, right, today I hate this business. Like, today I’m having a bad day.” I don’t know if you go that far, which is, like, you know, you can tell to a mentor, or a co-founder, right? Because it stays between the two of you. But, yeah, how do you balance, like, that openness and transparency with them, with the, like, when push comes to shove, like, you are the founder and you could fire them if you, like, if you had to?

Adii: So, like, that is tough, right. So, like, you always want to, I think part of being a leader in any team is, like, shielding the team from things that aren’t directly relevant to them or that could, like, defocus them or whatever the case is. So, I can’t remember a specific instance where I would have said something, like, you know what, I’ll just fed up with the business today, or whatever. But I’m not far from that. Like, I do try and be very, very open about that and I do… I, you know what, I, the way I say it is I also, when I do say things or when I am open like that and vulnerable like that, like I’m also acknowledging, like, the fact that I am also a human being. Yes, I am the leader of the team and, like, I am ultimately responsible for, you know, many things within the greater quantity of the team or company, but I’m also just a human being and, like, there should be a way, like, for us to just figure out how to be a human being with each other.

And as I said, that, like, the reason why that is a total gray area and I think sometimes that then is tougher, but it’s also… And that’s when I, you know, in kind of the previous ones were, like, why it’s been more challenging, why it’s pushed me to do all these personal development to find new ways that there are in it. I also find that that’s probably the most rewarding part of, like, what I’m doing right now is specifically those things because, like, it’s really, really, like, I’ve learned a lot just by being human. That’s been fascinating.

John: Yeah, totally. Totally, yeah. And just from, like, reading your stuff, you know, I was just, this morning, doing a little bit of light reading of stuff that you’ve written and, you know, looking at things that people had said about you online and read a post that you’d put on your personal blog about, you know, reaching superficial milestones, right? Like, you know, when you reach, like, $100,000 in monthly run rate, right, you’re like, “Wow, this is gonna, you know, feel completely different from, like, $99,000 a month in run rate.” But, like, it actually materially, like, doesn’t make a difference, but the fact that you can, but that you recognize that, right? And you’re, like, introspective enough to recognize that probably means that you, you know, you’ve gone through these times of, you know, introspection and also, like, working on yourself too. You know, to say like, “This is actually what I, you know, what I want and this is what I value, you know, at this time.” And then maybe building a team around that as well, right? So, like, you’re not doing, you know, the stuff that you hate to do and so, therefore, you don’t do but actually still need to be done.

Adii: Yeah, totally. And I mean that’s… So, like, a big part of it for me, personally, even beyond the business, you know, in the last couple years has been focused around figuring out what my personal values are and trying to kind of optimize most of my decisions and actions based on those values as some kind of north star. And that’s at least partly what we try to do. Well, we do that within the team as well. So, like, in many, like bigger decisions that we have to make, we would come up against the this wall which is, you know it, yes, it would make sense to do this but it doesn’t align with our values. And, like, again that’s just, you know, for me at least, is, you know, that’s part of this challenge of trying to be very aware of, you know, how and why we build this company and not just to fall back on a, like, a blueprint or something that’s supposed a best practice out there. Because beyond the fact that I do think that that’s sometimes superficial, sometimes artificial, like, I warn so much, like, “Well, there’s got to be more than one way to do this and it’s not fun.” It’s not fun, like, you know… This is gonna sound arrogant but, like, if you gave me a risk just to say, “Make the first be in this, like, a million dollars on the other side,” like that just does not stimulate me. Like, for the life of me, I can’t motivate me to follow the steps and address it even. And I think, for me, like, that’s where business and life is more of a art form, which is why, I said,  why stuff like values matter, because that speaks directly to how and why we do the things that we do.

John: Yeah, that really makes sense. One thing that you sent me in the email when we were discussing this is that, you know, having these, like, conversations and conversations being made as a team, as a collaborative sort of thing, means that, in your words, very few big decisions get made without immense scrutiny, right? And it sounds like part of that immense scrutiny is actually, like, your values, their values, company’s values, and then, like, you have to make those really hard decisions to build the company that you actually are proud to work at and keep working at and keep working on.

Adii: Exactly. So, probably one of the basic conversations that I remember where this happened the clearest was about six, seven months after raising our seed round. The Silicon Valley way or the tech media way of doing this is as soon as you raise money, you start planning for the next round, right? So, like, we’d set off on that course and then six, seven months, like, we didn’t yet need the money but I started talking to investors again to figure out what the kind of milestones were and what kind of a new round would look like. And then, you know, in all of that, we basically, as a team, we got to a part where, you know, “We don’t need the money right now, we wouldn’t know how to use the money, but maybe we should just raise the money anyway and just have it in our bank account.”

And then kind of, like, I remember, one of my team members, Stephen, he basically said, like, “That’s fine and dandy and it’s fine to say, we’ll use that money, like, you know, in an emergency or whatever. But we would still need to be clear about how we would then use that money.” And there was such a thoughtful way of, like, you saying, like, you know, “Let’s not just do this because we can, like, let’s be very, very clear about what, you know, subsequent actions or consequence to this decision is as well. And if we can’t be honest about that, or not basically honest in a dishonest way, but clear at least about those things today, then, like, how can we just assume that we will be clear about them in three months’ time when the shit hits the fan and we have to kind of figure this out on the fly?”

So, like, but I mean, that’s the level of scrutiny that kind of, you know, things sometimes, you know, goes through, which, I mean, through working on this as founder, and a solo founder, like, that is sometimes very frustrating. Like, sometimes, something that makes super sense to me. Like, I was like, “Hey, let’s just go. Here’s this thing, like, I’ll just throw this ball up in the air and someone touches it and let’s just run.” And it isn’t always as frictionless.

John: [crosstalk 00:13:33]

Adii: Exactly. But I think, like, that’s, like, when there is that, and the term that I now have for this is, like, literally like rigorous debate. I think when we have that rigorous debate around decisions and ideas, that’s when we, as a team, we come up with, you know, much better decisions than I would have been able to make on my own or anyone on the team would have been able to make on their own.

John: Right, totally, totally. No, that makes sense. I think that segues into the next thing that we wanted to chat about. Because, I mean, you know, in business, you’re always making hard decisions and every, you know, every decision has consequences, positive or negative, right, and often both. Like, there’s two sides to every coin. So, one of the things that you told me was that you’ve purposefully, like, right now, you can’t justify to commit yourself to raise your pricing, right? And I’ve talked about pricing with people before and, you know, everyone in the entrepreneurship world talks about pricing, right? How do you price your thing? How do you raise prices? All of that, but, like, you’ve made the specific reason, or the specific choice not to raise your prices. Did that come out the same sort of like rigorous questioning or rigorous debate, I guess, you call it?

Adii: Yeah. I mean, so, like, you know, John, a new reason for us to raise our prices, like, the only clear thing is profit, right? And, like, I’m not saying profit is bad, not at all, but it feels very superficial for us to go back to our customers and, like, I guess the concept here is, like, in most SaaS space, you know, best practice, I mean, there is this rule of thumb kind of, you know, suggestion to this. Like, you keep doubling your prices, and you’re, until more than, you know, half of your customers, you know, cancel. And that’s also generally very aligned with the more kind of IPO-able, like SaaS businesses, where the idea is to kind of go upstream, maybe not enterprise completely but go upstream and find bigger kind of, you know, annual contract values and, you know, all of that jazz. And that’s just something that doesn’t fascinate me, right.

I mean, with the software we have today, I mean, this is, for me, more philosophical. But if we were to raise our prices today for our kind of our stores, there’s just this knock-on effect. We just start the cycle where they didn’t need to kind of increase the price of their goods and they are selling to consumers. And then those consumers, like, can’t pay for the things they want to, you know, buy anymore, which means they have to go back to their employers, asking for a raise. And that raise then comes back and one of them is one of my team members ultimately, and then I have to pay them more. So, like, it just does this very, very weird cycle of… And again, I know I’m connecting many, many dots there that’s obviously not as close to, you know, kind of tied, but there is this, what I kind of term as the culture of more in our society, like worldwide these days, where it’s always the pursuit of more.

And what I understand, like, I have no problem raising prices and we do have, you know, our planning and considering at least a small bump in our prices for, you know, for the New Year. But it’s very much kind of incremental, small change that’s very close to kind of, you know, international inflation almost, right. So, it’s actually not an, you know, actual or real increase. So, it’s not about raising prices but it’s about being very clear about why, you know, why we’re doing that, and not just doing because we can or because we can make more profit. Because at least for us, like that is very superficial. I mean, I guess, to the point of my kind of being a previous story about kind of raising money or just having money in the bank, like, yes, if we had more profit, if we had, you know, 50% more profit today, we would also need to be very clear about what we’re gonna do with our profits, right?

John: Right, totally.

Adii: And it’s totally fine for us to then say, “You know what, we are gonna distribute those profits to shareholders, that’s why we’re, you know, increasing prices.” And that… Maybe that is, like, we haven’t had that discussion to that extent, for example, that would be a valid reason, right? But at least kind of test our assumptions of conservation to that extent before we make a seemingly easy decision to just double prices.

John: Yeah, I mean, I think the point there is that there are many valid reasons for doing it but, you know, just like raising… I mean, raising prices is basically raising long term, like, around the funding, right? Like, you’re getting more money in the bank either way, right? And so, yeah, you come back to that, “Well, okay, if we went from having, you know, half a million in the bank to having a million and a half in the bank, what would that materially do?” Like, for the business, would it make anyone materially happier, would your customers be happier, would you have a better business? And if not, why, you know, why are you gonna do it? Or even making those short-term, if you take the long-term of entrepreneurship then, you know, then you’re making a short-term trade-off to have, you know, more money in the bank in order to build a business that’s gonna, you know, keep on, like, keep on growing and have, you know, happy customers and all of that, while at the same time, taking a stand for the things you believe in, right?

Like, I think about, like, you know, companies like Moz, for example, right? Like, they’ve, you know, yeah, they raised funding and all that but, like, they’re very hard taking a stance on certain, like, social issues, right? And I definitely seen, like, some of the blowback in the industry where, like, there are some very conservative people in the, like SEO and digital marketing industry and they’re like, “Oh, like, you know, forget Moz. Like, you know, they’re, you know, leftist, liberals, whatever,” right? And they’re like, “We don’t care. Like, we don’t… You know, if you’re gonna be like that, like, we don’t want your money because we believe that this is more important than, you know, than like two, you know, two customers that, you know, are gonna be more of a pain than anyone else, right?”

Adii: Exactly.

John: So, yeah, that’s interesting. So, how do you make that…? So, if you’re gonna, you know, then say… I mean, I guess you’re having those conversations about, like, should you raise prices or not. Like, how does that, like, cycle of conversation work to say, like, “Okay, if we did this, how would we, like, what would we then do?”

Adii: Yeah. I mean, I guess, it’s always a question of, like, why is this, like, idea of consideration even coming up, all right? Like, to be very bit clear about,like, even, like, what is the catalyst to this and, like, what do we think we can solve, you know, through this? And sometimes, like if you consider profitability, like sometimes, instead of raising prices to be more profitable, you can just cut spending, like, on luxury stuff, as an example, right? So, and, like, that’s essentially what you wanna do in that conversation is, like, by understanding what the catalyst is, what you’re hoping to achieve, and then figuring out whether there’s alternatives that maybe are more wholesome or more sustainable, you know, like, in the longer term, or like whatever, I think that it wouldn’t be like you can probably use any lens or any falter to make that decision ultimately.

For us, the clear, like, anything we wanna be clear about is, like, what are we optimizing for, all right? I mean, and we have our own set of values. There are many sets of values in the world that I think are great and they will all be slightly different. And, like, it’s just the case, like, what do you wanna optimize for them. And one of the things that we do, for example, is we have what we call a life or a family first culture, which is basically an idea that we wanna do fun, like, challenging, stimulating work as a team, but we believe that we could probably, like, the most meaningful experiences that we can have in our lives is probably beyond work.

So, we try and set, you know, work up in a way that, you know, enable and empower individual team members to do those or pursue those meaningful things. Which means, like, that comes at a direct trade-off, like, nobody on my team is gonna work 80 hours a week, all right? So, we’re probably gonna gross, you know, coming a bit slower to the team that pulls, you know, 80-hour weeks. And that’s just not that the latter is wrong, I mean, I don’t agree with it, but not that it’s wrong but that’s the clear decision for us of what we’re gonna optimize for, right? We’re optimizing for, you know, a balanced approach but mostly one that’s focused on life, you know, than just kind of pure business growth.

John: Right. And was that a team decision? Is that something that, like, y’all, you know, decide on? Is that, like, an explicitly stated thing, or that come from you and you basically saying, like, “I’ve been in the game for a while. I hate it. I don’t wanna work, you know, 60-hour week, you know,” 40-hour weeks are fine now, but say like 60, 80, you know, 90-hour weeks? Obviously, you have to put, you know, you have to put in your wraps and sometimes, like, that is required. But, yeah, how did you all come to that conversation or to that decision?

Adii: So, like, I mean, the way we defined our culture and all that, like, our values and all the nitty-gritty around that, I think it’s very much an evolution of the team, you know, in that sense. I wouldn’t claim credit for that. I do think what, kind of what did set us off on that path where, like, that enabled us to come to that kind of culture is the fact that I was a second-time founder. So, like, I, before, I was not a starving founder when I started Conversio, which I think means kind of been where the dovetail is, I am slightly idealistic, generally in kind of the way I approach life. You know, to a fault, I’m idealistic. I definitely understand the downside of that approach as well, but that definitely meant that for me, in building a business was, I wanted a challenge. Like I wanted a personal challenge of how can we do this differently, how can I, you know, things that we’ve mentioned, like, how can I not follow blueprints, or how can I not do it the way that kind of the media or the experts kind of proposes? Because those things are more interesting to me.

So, like, by not being kind of more narrowly focused on, “We’re building B2B SaaS software. Here’s the playbook and here are the 10 options, like, we can follow to pursue our goal to profit.” Like, those lines of our framework was much, much wider. And I think that’s why, you know, the conversations within the team, you know, had more sculpt to then go into these softer or new areas or things that aren’t necessarily that, you know, often discussed or spoken about, you know, within teams, within businesses.

John: Right, yeah. And I think that, I mean, that’s interesting to talk about as well because, like, because you are a second-time founder and you weren’t, you know, starting second-time founder, like, you had a little bit, you can take a longer, you had the luxury of taking a longer approach to it, right? As opposed to, like, “Let’s just keep the lights on and, you know, grow this thing.” And then afterward, you step back and you’re like, “Why did we do that?” right? Like, “We kept the lights on. Like, I know I can keep the lights on,” you know. So, actually, what it’s gonna take to be, you know, to be happy to build a business that I’m proud of. Not that you weren’t proud of WooThemes, I’m sure. But, you know, but there are obviously things you wanted to change.

Adii: Yeah. Exactly. I mean, you know, it just comes… For me, it’s just a challenge thing, all right? I mean, like, I can’t do the same thing over and over. My brain, again, doesn’t work that way. So, if I had to… Again, if you could guarantee the exact same, like, financial outcome, you know, with Conversio than I had WooThemes on the condition that I had to do everything, like 99% the same, like, again, I would probably tell you, like, “Thanks, John, like, but no, thanks.” Like, that’s not fascinating. Like there’s no… I’m not learning through that because I think that’s the thing, all right? Because when I’m not challenged, I’m not necessarily learning, you know. When I’m not trying new things, I’m not learning. And those things are important for me as an individual and, you know, beyond just being an entrepreneur and a founder, it’s just about being an individual. I mean, I tried and practiced the same kind of thing in, like, the whole of my life. So, yeah, I can’t do the same thing twice.

John: Yeah, totally. No, I hear you, man. I think a lot of us that have started our own businesses, we, you know, we do it, we figure it out, and then, you know, hopefully, you can hire someone else, you know, to do it and we get to move on to the next thing.

Adii: Well, so, the only, like, point that I disagree with there is, like, that figuring out bit. Like, yes, there’s definitely a point where, like, I am more than happy to step back and say, like, “Hey, team, you guys are great. Can you now kind of take over this pursuit of figuring out because…” I mean, I definitely feel, you know, like I’m very tactical, specific things within business. There’s more things today that I feel I don’t know, or that I know that doesn’t work than things that I necessarily know. Like, if I do this again, like, this is gonna be the outcome. But, yeah. I mean, I agree, I mean, as if near a case of wanting to, you know, to figure things out or establish something to a certain extent and then being able to say, like, “This thing now needs to live, you know, beyond me, not necessarily without me but at least beyond me and beyond my, like, 100% care all of the time.”

John: Totally. Totally, yeah. And you can do that because you have a team in place, right? You can do that, you can, you know, say like, “Okay, you know, this thing needs to be done, you know.” Like, this person is really good at, you know, a similar, related, you know, sort of strategy or task where they’ve done it before in a past company, like, you know, empower them to do it as opposed to you, like, taking it on and, therefore, like, not having time to do the other things, which may be are within, like, your geniuses, as some people in the industry call it.

Adii: Yeah, exactly. And you know what, that’s interesting, like, just the, like, the things that I recently realized I’ve lost. At Conversio that I’m very, very proud of is, like, we, in the last couple of months, we had started the process of putting leaders into the team and not a hierarchy necessarily but like specific, like, function-based leaders.

John: Functional owners.

Adii: Exactly. So, and that’s like we’re three years into our journey and I only did the same thing at WooThemes after six years. So, like, I’ve halved that time, but I mean, I can remember, like when I left, you know, Woo, like I wrote a list of…and again, it was my Mindspace was a little negative on it, but there was value in kind of writing it, when I basically wrote a list of, “When I found my next company, these are the things I will not do.” And I mean, that led me to a point of, like, trying to build a team sooner. And what I meant with that was, like, having redundancy, like, not being the only one responsible. I might be the leader on specific things, but for the bulk of the business, I should not be the only one responsible for things. Because I also want to be able to take a two-week break without having to check into work, all right? So, I mean, that’s a good example for me of trying things in a different way, trying things a new way, and, you know, learning, not only learning from mistakes in the past but learning from the way things were in the past and then, you know, implementing things, you know, in a new interesting way in the future.

John: Awesome. Awesome. No, I love that. I think that’s a great place to kind of wrap this up. I know this is… I know, for me, this is been a super interesting and insightful conversation. It makes me go back and think about how I’m building my own business and hopefully, that does it for other people. So, Adii, tell the people watching where they can find you online and, you know, again, what Conversio is and how you can help them if they’re in that space.

Adii: Yeah. So, Conversio, all-in-one market dashboard for E-commerce stores. We have integrations for Shopify, WooCommerce, and BigCommerce. So, like, if you’re a store owner or a marketer and using any of those platforms, like, we are a great solution, you know, for that. So, that’s conversio.com. You should be able to… So, conversion without the n. It’s the easiest way to remember that. And anyone that’s keen to kind of, you know, read kind of more about these kind of ideas that I’ve shared with you today, it’s on my blog, adii.me or on Medium, just @adii.

John: Awesome, awesome. And you’re on Twitter as well, right, @adii.

Adii: I definitely have @adii accounts on Twitter. I don’t use it. I don’t use it as often. I more prefer the…when I do write or publish ideas kind of longer form. So, my blog or Medium is probably better, you know, better place to find more.

John: Awesome. Good stuff. Well, Adii, thank you so much for joining me today. This has been absolutely fantastic. I’ll put all those links and links to Conversio in the show notes as well. So, thanks again, man. Have a good one.

Adii: Same to you. Thanks for having me, John.